Kevan Chandler, founder of We Carry Kevan,

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In this episode:

Mark chats with Kevan Chandler, a non-profit founder, author, and adventurer to the core. They talk about Kevan’s non-profit, We Carry Kevan, which strives to encourage the dignity of individuals with disabilities and their support systems, acknowledging everyone’s unique potential. Kevan discusses his travels as “the human backpack” with his friends across Europe and China, and goes into detail about his books and what inspires him. He also discloses who he would be if he were a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle.

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Listen to IAP 2019-E4: Interview with Kevan Chandler

Links of Interest

About Kevan

About We Carry Kevan

Kevan’s memoir

The WCK Pack

Kevan’s Documentary: The View From Here - A We Carry Kevan Film


Speaker 1: Welcome to the IAP, the Interactive Accessibility Podcast, bringing you the people, technology and ideas, helping to make your world accessible to everyone

Mark Miller: Hey, welcome to the IAP, the Interactive Accessibility Podcast, brought to you by the Paciello Group and its affiliate, Interactive Accessibility. I'm your host Mark Miller, thanking you for helping us keep it accessible. Do us a favor, if you're enjoying the IAP, share it, tell someone about it. Hey, even link to it from your accessible website

Mark Miller: Thanks everyone for joining us. I have a very interesting guest today. His name is Kevan Chandler. And Kevan, I think I'm going to ... Welcome to the IAP first off. It's really, really great to have you part of the show

Kevan Chandler: Thanks

Mark Miller: And what I want to do is I really ... There's so many angles here, and your life is so cool, to put it bluntly. I want you, just if you don't mind, just starting off and telling us how you fill your time, some of these interesting things that you know I'm talking about here

Kevan Chandler: Oh, man. That's a big question. I was actually just talking to one of our board members right before this call. I was like, "I feel like things move so fast, and also always bringing in new people to what we're doing." And so, I'm not really sure what all I do. But when I'm in

Mark Miller: That's why I had you produce it

Kevan Chandler: Right. Right. Oh, man. I'll just start with the broad stroke, which is I run a nonprofit called We Carry Kevan. We are striving to redefine client accessibility as more of a cooperative effort of people helping people. We think that's where true accessibility comes from

Kevan Chandler: And so, my role in that is, first off, traveling to speak, and write books, and do interviews to spread that message. And then also, get other people involved. We've been having talks this week about really understanding more of what we're doing as a nonprofit, and our marketing, as we've got a backpack coming out this week for other people to use, and stuff like that

Kevan Chandler: When I'm not traveling to speak, I spend my time in a coffee shop in Downtown Fort Wayne, and meet with people, both about business and just about life, and try and be as present, and spend as much quality time with the people around me as possible

Mark Miller: Beautiful. And just, I don't know if people can hear, but you're actually sitting in that very coffee shop right now. So, if you're hearing background chatter, and clinking, and stuff like that, it's because you're in your official coffee shop office, right

Kevan Chandler: Yeah, yeah. I got away from the bean grinder. I figured you would appreciate that

Mark Miller: The chattering and clinking is okay, but the bean grinder might be a little much for the podcast

Kevan Chandler: Right. Right. Exactly

Mark Miller: That's super cool. One of the things ... We haven't really unveiled completely what this picture looks like, which I kind of like, right

Kevan Chandler: Sure

Mark Miller: When I think about what you do, and it's such a unique thing, and it's for such a unique reason, and it's done in such a unique way, and we'll get to what all that looks like. But one of the things that it makes me think about, is the amazing network of friends that you must have. You really have this, just in my little exploration, I imagine the people that you're surrounded by, and they must be just amazing, an amazing group of people. Can you talk to me a little bit about those relationships, and how you've developed it, and how that's helped you push your cause forward

Kevan Chandler: Yeah, I mean they are really amazing people. And it's funny because people see the trips that we did to Europe and one we did to China, so they think that group of friends is three or four guys. But there are so many other people behind the scenes or at home that are involved, not just in the nonprofit, but in my own life that really just make life possible

Kevan Chandler: It's funny because I end up getting to speak and stuff like that, but they're really the heroes here. They're the ones that make all this stuff happen. If it weren't for them, I would not be getting out of bed. Literally

Mark Miller: Right

Kevan Chandler: Yeah, so I've got two roommates that are really awesome, one of which is gone on both trips with me. He and I travel a lot together, Ben Duvall. And then, the other roommate is Matt Spurgeon. He's actually a physical therapist himself, and so he's involved in that world in his own way. And then, we've got about 10 other guys who just come in throughout the day and night to help out on a volunteer basis, to make my life happen

Kevan Chandler: That's only here in Fort Wayne. I've got friends elsewhere, that whenever I've traveled, they're willing to pitch in and either come along, or meet up with us where we are. It's so encouraging. It's humbling, but in the right way, you know

Mark Miller: Right. Right

Kevan Chandler: It shows me how much I'm loved and how much I'm valued. And so, that keeps me in check, in a good way

Mark Miller: Yeah

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. I enjoy it

Mark Miller: Well, that's evident. I think the other thing I would say, on your friends behalf, is that you may feel all those things, but they're getting something out of it too. And it's really enriching their lives and they're enjoying it

Kevan Chandler: Sure

Mark Miller: I mean, just looking at some of the videos and stuff, it's not ... Let's back a little bit, right? And talk about why you need this kind of assistance. You have muscular dystrophy. Can you talk to me about how that's affected your life? And just, let's just disclose what it is that people are actually doing for you to get you through your day, and more importantly, these awesome adventures that you and your friends take together

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Actually, I have spinal muscular atrophy, which essentially means that the message from my brain to my spinal cord gets messed up. I spend most of my time in a wheelchair, when my friends aren't carrying me around on their backs. Yeah, I'm in a wheelchair. My arms are pretty weak and my legs don't work. And so, that's why I need the help that I do, especially when I'm out of my chair, I'm pretty helpless in regard with what I can do for myself

Kevan Chandler: I would also say ... You kind of touched on this, is what the guys get out of it and the joy that we experience together, it all comes from the fact that it's a friendship. It's not just a service. Three years ago we went to Europe, and we left my wheelchair back home in the states, and just backpacked around, and the guys carried me in a backpack. People are like, "Oh, it's amazing that they did this for you." The truth is, that we as a group of friends, wanted to take this trip, and this was the way that we we had to do it together for me to be able to be there and be a part of it

Kevan Chandler: It really is just friends working together, both disabled and able bodied, pitching in, in the ways that we've been gifted, each of us. So, yeah, I can look out for them, and feed encouragement in my own way, and they can be an encouragement in theirs

Mark Miller: That's amazing. And I can see where people would stumble upon that scene, and have that impression, "Oh, look what these guys are doing for you." But clearly, it's something they're doing with you

Kevan Chandler: Right

Mark Miller: To me, the cool thing in hearing you talk about it, is that it's like there's not a lot of consideration about it, right? It is just what needs to be done. Just like they need to pack a bag and carry that with them. Just like they need to make sure they remember their toothbrush, Just like they need to wake up their buddy when the plane lands, so that he knows when the plane lands, he knows it's landed. Just those normal things that friends would do for each other along the way. It seems to me, like this is just sort of, "Oh, another thing. Kevan needs to go on the back, and we'll head out. Let's go.

Kevan Chandler: Right. Exactly

Mark Miller: It's not really like, "Oh, we're accommodating." Like you said, it doesn't even feel like a service. It's just this is how it works. This is what we're doing. We all want to be together, and we all want to have this adventure

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Yeah

Mark Miller: Yeah. That's

Kevan Chandler: That's exactly ..

Mark Miller: Well, and I think it's a testament to a lot of things, right? You as a human being, and your power and ability to cultivate those kind of relationships. And where an outsider might look and say, "Geez. What does this guy really have to offer?" What you have to offer might not be physical, it's definitely emotional, and intellectual, and all those kinds of things. And just the power of that, to contribute to a group of friends in a way that makes this something that's second nature, was amazing

Kevan Chandler: Yeah

Mark Miller: And that's ... Well, I got to ask you. Let's divert a minute, right? I looked at some of your videos and stuff, and you've got this obvious nickname I think of the human backpack

Kevan Chandler: Right

Mark Miller: Because you fit on their back. And it's really cool. You've got the backpack that you're creating, or you're playing on that, right? You guys obviously have a good sense of humor. But in one of these videos, one of your friends is carrying a Katana. So, I feel like you're in good hands, that nobody's going to get through to you

Kevan Chandler: Well, I'm glad that it suggests that he knows how to use the Katana

Mark Miller: So, it might actually be more dangerous than actually ..

Kevan Chandler: It might be. Yeah. No, that was from a very early experience, when we decided ... It was actually his idea to go into the sewer system in North Carolina. I was like, "Sure, why not? Let's do it." It was something he had always wanted to explore, and wanted me to go with him, and so that's where the backpack came from originally

Mark Miller: Oh, nice

Kevan Chandler: And so, we had the Katana because we grew up on Ninja Turtles, so it just made sense. You know? It's like, "Well, let's go into the sewers, and let's take a Samurai Sword with us." You know, why not

Mark Miller: That's perfect. Which Ninja Turtle do you most identify with

Kevan Chandler: Oh, man. You know, it's changed over the years, as I've gotten older. So, now ... Oh, man. I don't know

Mark Miller: It's an important question

Kevan Chandler: It is. It's a very important question, one that I haven't really thought through lately. I don't know. Can I get back to you on that

Mark Miller: You can come back to it

Kevan Chandler: All right, but don't let me forget

Mark Miller: I won't let you forget. We're huge Ninja Turtle fans over here. I live in New Hampshire, right? In a small town called Exeter. About 20 minutes northwest of us is the city of Dover, New Hampshire, which is in fact where the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were first created

Kevan Chandler: Oh, nice

Mark Miller: Yeah. So, anybody paying attention to that, Dover is just north of the University of New Hampshire

Kevan Chandler: Wow. You just keep pulling out all the trivia about New Hampshire

Mark Miller: Yeah. Well, because I live here

Kevan Chandler: Right. Right

Mark Miller: Start me talking on Fort Wayne, it'll be over pretty quick

Kevan Chandler: Right. Right

Mark Miller: I know a guy named Kevan, that does some really cool stuff, that lives in Fort Wayne, and that's about the end of it

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. And we have coffee

Mark Miller: And you have coffee. Yeah. You guys don't have office space. You all work out of coffee shops

Kevan Chandler: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's the whole thing

Mark Miller: You're doing more than just hanging out with your friends, and I got to say I'm jealous. It looks like you guys have created this perpetual college feel, right? I mean, again, it looks like you guys are goofing around, and having fun, and having adventures. A lot of people are probably listening to this going, "I wish that's how my every day went." You know

Mark Miller: But Kudos to you guys. I think that's really cool. And you're not just goofing around. This is really for a cause. And you're actually writing some books as well, in a couple of different genres it sounds like

Kevan Chandler: Yeah

Mark Miller: But can you talk to me about how these particular experiences are starting to inspire that writing for you

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. When we got back from our original trip, I decided to write a memoir about that experience. I always loved writing, but I had never wanted to write anything about myself. This just seemed like something that should be written

Kevan Chandler: So, I pursued that. And through that process, I don't know what happened, but at some point in there, it clicked, where I could write about my experience, but I could also write fiction and nonfiction about concepts of accessibility and everything, and I could still tie my own experience into it, still in a creative writing way

Kevan Chandler: I realize too that some of my favorite writers, as I've learned more about their lives, I realized that you write what you know. And so, it comes through, and it affects everything that you write

Kevan Chandler: My favorite writer, J.M. Barrie, who is famous for writing Peter Pan, he also wrote a ton of novels about a fictional village in Scotland, a fictional town. It turned out to actually be based on the town he grew up in. Kinvar has done the same, and Frederick Buechner, and a ton of other guys. You know, Tolkien did a lot of that too, basing things off of childhood memories and everything

Kevan Chandler: Just embracing that, and realizing that I love writing about adventure, but I also can see the adventure in every day life. Also, the crazy adventures that we've had. Tying all of that in, and being able to allow it to contribute to my storytelling. It's been really liberating

Mark Miller: Yeah. That's brilliant. Stephen King lives up in Maine, right? A little bit away from us. He has family in this area, and in his book on writing, you hit on one of the major points of that book, and that is that you write what you know. If you don't know it, you're not going to write it well. It doesn't matter who you are. Even if it's fictional like he does, it's inspired from things you're familiar with, just like you were talking about. A lot of his talents and stuff are exactly like that

Mark Miller: Let me ask you this in that vain, when you first started writing, was your first sort of, "Hey, I think I'm going to take a stab at this writing thing." Was that in response to that trip or had you been writing before that

Kevan Chandler: I remember writing short stories and really bad comics when I was eight-years-old. It's always been a part of me. But after college, a friend of mine introduced me to an author named named Walter Moers. He's a German "cartoonist", who also writes these super weird novels. And so, they were like, "Hey! I think you would like this." I read it, and I remember about halfway through the first book, I felt like he was jumping onto the page and saying, "Don't be afraid to tell your stories, whatever is in your head.

Kevan Chandler: And so, I started doing that, just coming up with ... You know, I had always been developing stories in my head, and so I just started putting them down on paper, and writing about what I enjoyed writing about, and writing about what I wanted to read, basically

Mark Miller: Right

Kevan Chandler: And so, at the time, it was a lot of detective stuff and zombie stuff

Mark Miller: Gotcha

Kevan Chandler: I was in that zone. But I self-published a lot of stuff back then, did a a bible study thing that was more narrative, and yeah. Just did a lot of stuff like that. It was always self-published. And when we were going on this trip, I really got the sense from some other writers, and publishers, and editors who said, "If you write this as a book, as a memoir, we think it will actually go somewhere.

Mark Miller: Thinking highly publishable

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Yeah. That's when I really pursued that

Mark Miller: Is that experience and writing about it, is that starting to inform some of your future fiction

Kevan Chandler: You know, it actually is, and I didn't even realize it was until I guess maybe recently. There's actually characters that I have been toying with for a few years, that I realize, "Oh, wait. This kind of ties in with my own experience." And so, I've noticed that in everything I write, there's always some sort of physical limitation or disability, that sometimes it's addressed but a lot of the times it's just part of the character, you know? A guy has a fake leg, or a guy in a wheelchair, you know? Whatever the case may be

Kevan Chandler: And so, I kind of like that, but it's just the part of the world

Mark Miller: Yeah. Handled in a matter of fact way

Kevan Chandler: Yeah! And then you see how that interacts with the people around or him or her. So, we'll see. I don't know how it will manifest itself ultimately, but I'm excited

Mark Miller: Do you ever think about being more direct, and actually writing a story with a character that's pretty much in your exact situation

Kevan Chandler: Yeah, I actually have. And I've got a story that I've been tinkering with for several years. Just waiting for it to fully develop itself, as I write down pieces of it. The two main characters are essentially a guy that's disabled and his best friend, and he gets carried around, just dragged around wherever they go and stuff

Mark Miller: Right

Kevan Chandler: They go on adventures around the countryside, so we'll see. I don't know. Or I may decide that's a little too close to what I've already written, and scrap it

Mark Miller: From the outside audience perspective, I can tell you that what would interest me about that story, is I would imagine the relationship development between those two people

Kevan Chandler: Sure

Mark Miller: And the difficulties, and the things that they overcome together, good, and the bad, and all that stuff

Kevan Chandler: Yeah

Mark Miller: It would be an opportunity to explore that relationship in that way

Kevan Chandler: Yeah

Mark Miller: And you probably uniquely have insight for that because I would imagine that there is something very different about your relationship with somebody who is literally carrying you on their back, and is in essence, always sort of in supreme control of what happens, right? If you want to go left, and they don't ... If the relationships good, maybe they consider that, right? But if they want to go right, and you don't want them to, that's what's going to happen

Mark Miller: There's a real trust. There's a lot of amplifications of normal qualities in a relationship, and just shifts in the way that two people would relate to each other, that I think would be amazing to explore, and probably help illuminate some things for people who aren't in that circumstance, that would help them understand themselves better too

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Yeah

Mark Miller: I think it would be interesting, personally

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. I think for the disabled or able bodied, in any relationship that they have, I think it is applicable because what you ended up seeing happen, from my experience, when you're physically attached, when you're on someone's back being carried around, you end up sharing experience together

Mark Miller: Right

Kevan Chandler: There have been times when I have gotten to see the world through the perspective of whoever's carrying me

Mark Miller: Interesting

Kevan Chandler: While we were in England, we went to the British Museum. Which, I mean in general, I can say it's really cool. But we had a guy on our trip who is a history teacher at a high school or middle school. And so, I actually was on his back for that part of the day

Kevan Chandler: And so, going through the exhibits with this guy who has studied these things in a textbook for so long, and getting to experience his excitement, I mean he was just enthralled. And so, by proxy, I became enthralled with it as well. It was such a rich experience that I would have never had on my own. I think that's something that people can lead from, just as a community, and growing together as people

Mark Miller: That's a very interesting point. And I think that in this world of distractions, cell phones, and there's always something better around every other corner, it's very different than the world was 50-100 years ago. I can see myself maybe hanging out with this same guy, and being pretty interested. But I have sort of this unique option to walk away, and come back, and experience things independently, and then back with that individual. And I probably would do those things, right

Kevan Chandler: Yeah

Mark Miller: Whereas with you, you're in this situation where you have no choice but to ride that out all the way through with that individual, and because you can't succumb to those other distractions, it ultimately enhances your experience, is what I'm hearing from you

Mark Miller: I think that's a really interesting perspective. And again, it might cause audiences to be introspective. It certainly causes me to be introspective. What if I couldn't walk away from this person's side, and I had to go through this with them? Where would I ultimately end up? Versus where I end up when I get bored, and shuffle off, and look at something else, or whatever the case it is

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. It's a new or different level of dabs

Mark Miller: Right

Kevan Chandler: You know, I really have to be here. I have to be present

Mark Miller: Yeah

Kevan Chandler: That can't be anything but Yeah. And so that, that can't be anything but a glowing experience, I think

Mark Miller: Yeah. And even if you head off in another direction, that guy's with you

Kevan Chandler: Right

Mark Miller: It's like you might pick the direction, right? You could wander off, but he's going to wander off with you

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Yeah

Mark Miller: That's really cool. So, I think that I'm definitely going to pour through some of the writings because I think that your perspective is just an amazing one, and probably one that can really inform a better way for other people to go through their lives. And certainly, just a unique and worthwhile perspective to share with the world

Mark Miller: Thanks for doing that, right? You could just have all these cool experiences, and do what you do, and not put it down on paper for the rest of us. That's really cool that you're motivated to do that

Kevan Chandler: Thank you. Yeah

Mark Miller: We gotta wrap up here pretty soon, so tell me what are your hopes for the future? How are you going to move? Are you thinking about expanding the nonprofit? Are you thinking about more adventures, more books? What do you really see right now for you in five years or so

Kevan Chandler: Oh, I don't know about that

Mark Miller: Well, you know

Kevan Chandler: Who knows what will happen in five years

Mark Miller: Tomorrow then

Kevan Chandler: Tomorrow. Well, tomorrow, I get on a plane and fly out ... No

Mark Miller: Coffee

Kevan Chandler: Right. I'll be drinking coffee. Right now, we as a nonprofiter, are really figuring out the next stage of who we are. This week we were finally able to release or put on sale the backpack that we designed for our travels. We were able to mass produce it, and so now it's available on the website

Kevan Chandler: And so, we're going from being simply a nonprofit that's all about inspiration, to being a nonprofit that provides I guess the practical steps to apply that inspiration, and move forward in your own experience, and being able to equip people to have that experience as well

Kevan Chandler: So, yeah. I mean, right now, we're really focused on the backpack, and giving those to the people they can best benefit, or the people that would love to have adventures of their own. And then, as we see how that goes, we'll hopefully be able to provide other similar equipment or services. We'd love to come alongside families, and work through what accessibility looks like for them specifically? Which we've been able to do, over the past I would say three and a half, four years as people have just approached us, and we had conversations either over email, or Facebook, or in person at conferences, or churches, or schools

Kevan Chandler: It's been so cool to talk through things with families, and be an encouragement, and be able to help them figure out what their lives look like. Because you know, mine works on mine, and other people's may work another way. I think if we get creative, and we're willing to work together, that's the coriander

Kevan Chandler: And so, being able to walk alongside people to do that, has been a big part of what we do. But as we move forward, I would like to be able to do that in a more professional capacity, providing that as a service in a more full-time way

Mark Miller: Right

Kevan Chandler: We'll see what that looks like

Kevan Chandler: And then, of course, we want to continue to not just tell the story of what we've done, but we want to continue to have adventures, continue to travel, so that the story is a on ongoing thing that people look on and don't say, "Oh, well he had this one-time bucket list experience, and then everybody went away.

Mark Miller: Right

Kevan Chandler: It's like, no, this is a life that we live

Mark Miller: Yeah

Kevan Chandler: So, back in September we went to China, and we got to spend time with some care centers that are designed for orphans with disabilities. And so, we got to play with the kids, and the staff, as well as hiked to the Great Wall, and stuff like that. And so, being able to, as we move forward, doing more trips but with that kind of purpose, of connecting with the disabled community of wherever we are, and hopefully being an encouragement to them in person

Mark Miller: Wow

Kevan Chandler: So, yeah. Just a lot of cool stuff going on

Mark Miller: It really is

Kevan Chandler: We'll see how it happens

Mark Miller: Yeah. It really is. Just hearing you talk about it, I see this sort of metaphorical role reversal, where you're taking all these adventures, you're literally being carried on somebody else's back to facilitate these adventures. But when you get there, and when you sit down with families, and other people with disabilities, and you inspire them to accommodate the way they need to accommodate in order to have as rich of a life, you're in essence, temporarily carrying them on your back, right

Kevan Chandler: Sure

Mark Miller: And allowing them, through your experiences, to ride along, long enough to realize that they can do that. I'm assuming the backpack is a regular backpack, right? Where you can put your stuff in, but it also has accommodations to where you could put somebody like yourself on the back as well. Is that fair to say

Kevan Chandler: I would say it's primarily the latter. And then secondarily, the former

Mark Miller: Gotcha

Kevan Chandler: We started with a toddler carrier from a company called Deuter, D-E-U-T-E-R. They're a German backpack company. It was designed for a 40 pound toddler to be carried. We re-did the whole thing, retrofitted it to be for a 65 pound grown man. And so, we've been able to work with them for the past couple of years to take what we did, and do not just a professional version of that, but also continue to make modifications and tweak it to be more adjustable for more needs of the disabled community

Mark Miller: I think that's a a real ... It's one thing to tell your story, and to talk to people, and to have this conceptual idea of being able to accommodate and do things. But I think having this backpack for you is going to bring that to another level, because I think it's going to be something very tangible to people

Kevan Chandler: Yes. Exactly

Mark Miller: Where they say, "Wait a minute. I can order this thing and get going. Or if it's not that, I can order something and get going. This is not just an idea that I have to figure out, but it's something that is just doable." You know

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Yeah. It's no longer just an inspirational story from a distance, but it's something that you can have for yourself. Yeah. I think

Mark Miller: That's really cool

Kevan Chandler: Even just the idea of people helping people, it's manifested so clearly in the use of the backpack. And so, hopefully as I said before, hopefully we can provide other options down the road, but this is what we're focused on right now. And so, yeah, I think it does have a tangible applicable way for people to act on that concept

Mark Miller: Well, I think that ... Here's my request and my wish. I think that you should also design a backpack that's not necessarily for carrying somebody around, but inspired by you, that you could sell to the masses, and raise money because I know I would buy one of those. So, think about that, and send me an email when you have it

Kevan Chandler: Sure. Sure. Yeah

Mark Miller: What an amazing story. I mean, it's inspiring. It's inspiring to me, you know? And it's gotta be inspiring to a lot of other people. And like I said, what a great way to spend your life, spend your day and, and really get involved with something that just matters to you

Mark Miller: One last really, really, really important thing. This is going to be the most important thing of the podcast, and you know it's coming because you told me not to let you off the hook, which Ninja Turtle

Kevan Chandler: Oh, man. Okay

Mark Miller: Michelangelo, Leonardo, Raphael, Donatello

Kevan Chandler: I'm going to say Michelangelo

Mark Miller: Okay

Kevan Chandler: And I say that because I'm going to be that generational guy and ask are you familiar with the Enneagram

Mark Miller: Say that again. With the ..

Kevan Chandler: The Enneagram Personality stuff

Mark Miller: A little bit, yeah

Kevan Chandler: Okay. Well, then I'll skip it. I won't use that as an example. Maybe instead of an Enneagram or a Myers-Briggs, everyone should just be

Mark Miller: A Ninja Turtle

Kevan Chandler: Yeah, classified by Ninja Turtles. That'd be great. I think right now, my favorite and the one I identify most with is Michelangelo, because I'm so much like ..

Mark Miller: Michelangelo

Kevan Chandler: I want to do stuff, I want to have fun, and be out there, and be with my friends goofing off, and bringing more and more people into that, hints the conversations and steps that we're doing. But just that lighthearted, having fun thing. I get that

Mark Miller: Yeah

Kevan Chandler: Yeah

Mark Miller: Well, and your friend is clearly Leonardo with his Katana

Kevan Chandler: Oh, sure. Sure. And then, my roommate Ben is Donatello, because he's the one that actually thinks through everything

Mark Miller: Oh, gotcha

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Yeah

Mark Miller: Well, I guess that leaves me. I'll jump in as Raphael if you don't have anybody else

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Yeah. I was going to ask who you would be

Mark Miller: It's funny. I identify myself probably as a bit of a Michelangelo, but that's probably more of a ... I think you live Michelangelo a little bit more than I do. I might a little bit too, but I was going to say Raphael

Kevan Chandler: You're the Michelangelo of New Hampshire

Mark Miller: There you go. Well, listen, hey I would be a Ninja Turtle with you any day. I really, really appreciate you coming on and talking to us. What an inspiring story. I feel like we could do this over and over again, and forever. I'm sure you've got more and more stories

Kevan Chandler: Oh, yeah

Mark Miller: Maybe on that note, we'll have you back again

Kevan Chandler: Yeah

Mark Miller: Don't be a stranger to us. Please keep in touch and let us know what you have going on. Marissa, who's our producer is going to make sure that we have all sorts of links to all the different things that you're doing. So if you've been listening to this, and you and you want to read more on the web, find books, and stuff like that, we'll make sure that all that stuff is available in the notes

Mark Miller: Really cool, man. Thanks so much for joining us

Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for calling

Mark Miller: Yeah, you're welcome

Mark Miller: This is Mark Miller thanking Kevan Chandler and reminding you to keep it accessible

Speaker 1: The IAP Interactive Accessibility Podcast is brought to you by Interactive Accessibility, the accessibility experts. You can find their access matters blog at


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